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Hello, this is the Migraine Heroes Podcast, a podcast where we share real stories from
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real people suffering and battling with migraine disease.
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In this podcast, we seek to provide support, hope, holistic health, advocacy and inspiration
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for those who suffer from migraine disease.
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Welcome Ducie Cardinal.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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I'm really excited to be joining you.
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I am super excited too.
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If you haven't heard it, Ducie is one of our Migraine Heroes and she has a podcast of her
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own on this topic and I really strongly encourage you to see how Ducie's life got transformed
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alongside the one of others.
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In my practice, when I work with someone, at the very end, we meet again.
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And I like to say that it's the first time I really get to meet the person I work with.
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I always say that because I find women when they no longer have migraines and they no
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longer have the fear and the anxiety that comes alongside and sort of the sadness that
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comes with it, they've really lightened up and bubble up.
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And in that conversation, we talked about what you do for a living.
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And I had been searching for you, exactly you, for quite some time because what you
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do is extremely relevant to some of my work, which has to do with trauma.
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So I let you open the floor.
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What do you do for work, Ducie?
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So I am a counsellor and a trauma-focused counsellor especially, and I incorporate the
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polyvagal theory quite frequently into my sessions.
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And really what that does is helps us to understand the nervous system, how it was
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shaped the way that it is and how it impacts us today.
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If we have learned that there are many things out there that are threatening to be feared,
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then our nervous system is constantly scanning the environment for these kinds of threats.
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And so the reason why it got me really interested is, as you know by now, I'm taking care of
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hundreds and thousands of women across the globe, and women, men, and children across
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the globe with their migraines.
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But I could really see early on that there were some of them that had their migraines
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since really, really early, so maybe five-year-old, six-year-old, and they have had an onset that
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linked to a trauma.
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And that for these people, food were really important, but there seems to be something
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superseding and sort of damaging the vagus nerve in the first place.
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And because I like to fight for every single one of you, I always like to find more and
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more answers, even for the exceptions.
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For me, I don't see like a success rate as a percentage of everyone.
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I see success rate as this is 100% of the life of the person in front of me.
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And I read theories on the facts, and I'd love to hear from you, on the fact that the
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vagus nerve can be altered by trauma, and is the only place in Western science where
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we can link emotions to a physical change, which is hard to see in other instances, but
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in traditional Chinese medicine is present.
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And so therefore, I'm dying to have this podcast to learn so much more from you.
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What's happening in the body?
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How is it changing?
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How is it suddenly wiring and how can you unwire that?
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Yeah, as a fellow migraine hero, I noticed a strong relationship between my own mental
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health and chronic pain.
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When my nervous system was in a defensive state, I was feeling stressed or anxious,
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then the pain was more intense, more frequent, and the medication didn't work.
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With the vagus nerve, so it extends right from the brainstem, goes down and into all
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of the organs, it connects to all of the organs, and it's communicating between your
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organs and your brain back and forth.
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And it's constantly scanning the environment, looking for cues of either safety or of danger,
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and then it responds accordingly.
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If there are cues of safety, then you stay in your calm and safe and social state.
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If there are cues of danger, then you start entering a state of activation, fight or flight,
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or even shut down if there's nothing that you can do to protect yourself.
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And so I want to be very cognizant that our listeners might not be familiar with what
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the vagus nerve is.
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So can you, in a few simple words, describe what it is?
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It's a pathway of nerves that runs from the brainstem down the spinal cord and then connects
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to various organs.
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And there's a sympathetic system, part of the nervous system that is built for activation.
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So if there's a threat, we are ready to fight or to flee.
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And then the vagus nerve part, there's two parts of that.
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There's the ventral vagus, which is active when we are feeling safe and calm, and that
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helps us reach homeostasis.
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And then there's the dorsal vagal, meaning in the back, that allows our body to shut
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In the case of trauma or fear, then we shut down out of fear in order to dissociate or
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to not experience what's happening.
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But if we are safe, then our body shuts down in order to rest or sleep or meditate.
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So each part of this system is helpful and your body reacts depending on whether it's
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sensing safety or threat.
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Thank you so much for explaining that.
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Can we start with the types of threats that you work with?
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What do we call the trauma?
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So the types of threats, I especially focus on development, the developmental years.
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That could be persistent trauma of abuse, neglect, being in a household that is not
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It could also mean that the caregiver themself is not feeling safe and that gets projected
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That shapes the child's nervous system as well.
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So yeah, just if there's been events in the person's life that have been overwhelming
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or have caused them to go into one of the defensive states and now they are so easily
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brought into those defensive states and it gets hard to get out of those states.
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It's kind of the longer impact of the trauma.
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And so for example, what would we have in that category?
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Like if a sexual abuse, for example, would belong to that category or maybe time of war,
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war would also qualify.
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I mean, there are so many different things that can go on.
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Maybe also like a very difficult divorce, financial stress.
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Could that be that traumatizing?
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I mean, anything that is overwhelming to you and you feel like you are alone and constantly
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fearful, anything that brings that response out in you.
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So it's more defined by how you feel than what's the intensity of the situation.
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Yes, I would say so.
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I mean, the DSM has very specific examples of what trauma is.
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So we could definitely use those.
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But in day to day life, we also experience regular things like divorce or even having
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a child is amazing, but it can be so traumatizing.
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Not in a bad way, but usually.
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Sorry, you mentioned the DSM.
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Would you mind clarifying?
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The DSM-5 now is kind of the diagnostic and statistical manual for disorders.
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So that lists all of the disorders and what the requirements are to be categorized as
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And how does that play back?
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So let's imagine we're a child and we're going through a trauma.
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Do we notice in Western science that if we are younger, the trauma has a deeper influence
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on the vagus nerve or not quite?
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It impacts the development.
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So yes, if the child is younger, then aspects of their personality are not formed, aspects
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of their physiology are still developing, and they don't have access to words.
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They're pre-verbal, so they aren't able to even process those experiences verbally.
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So the way that they process it in that time is by screaming and fussing, and it really
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comes down to the caregiver, how the caregiver then meets those needs.
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And if the needs are not met, then that also increases the impact of the original trauma.
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So because of the lack of language, just processing what you're saying, because of the lack of
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language, it's much harder for the child to understand what is going on with them.
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And yeah, that makes a complete sense.
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And it shapes their physiology without them even knowing.
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And it shapes their physiology.
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Can you share a little bit of examples of maybe posture or behavior?
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Of behavior that would be seen afterward?
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So I won't go into detail in terms of what kinds of trauma, but you might see the original
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trauma being played out in their play or when playing with other children.
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So you might see them acting out, maybe if there has been some sexual abuse, then they
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might be acting that out, reenacting that with toys or with other children.
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It might come out in their drawings, how they feel about a certain parent.
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But yeah, it usually just comes out in play and drawings as well as behaviors that look
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like ADHD and anxiety, not being able to focus, not being able to handle regular situations.
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And in terms of posture, you mentioned the dorsal part of the vagus nerve.
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Would you say that the posture also can softly indicate?
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So yeah, the dorsal vagal, it just runs on the back part of the spine, whereas the front.
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So I would say posture would definitely be impacted depending on what the trauma is.
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And generally with trauma comes elements of shame, so that can certainly be carried
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out in how you hold your body.
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So with trauma come elements of shame.
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So even though the child is not quite conscious what they feel, they feel intuitively shameful
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about the situation?
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Even though it is not their fault at all, that feeling of shame gets directed towards
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If it gets pointed towards their caregiver, it means that they have faulty caregivers
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and therefore are not safe.
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If it gets blamed on the environment, then it means their environment is not safe and
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therefore the child is not safe.
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So it must be my fault as the child, I have to take that on in order to feel some semblance
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Ah, so they take it on, they feel responsible.
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And then the child becomes a young adult, and so I guess there's like different times
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at which people meet you.
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How does that translate if you correct that early versus late?
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Yeah, I mean, of course the goal is to work with the person as early as possible.
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Really we're learning more and more about mental health now, and so it's much more likely
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that I would encounter an adult who's been through situations in the past when there
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weren't the right kind of resources for them back then.
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But looking at a teen or an adult, you would see similar sort of coping strategies that
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were effective for them when they were younger.
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So if the child learned to protect themselves by remaining hypervigilant, it's very hard
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to focus when you're constantly scanning the environment for danger.
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So that hypervigilance helped them to feel safe because they are prepared.
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There is potential danger and I need to be prepared.
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As they get older, hopefully that danger is not present anymore, but that natural instinct
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So there comes a lot of work learning the tools that they would have learned through
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co-regulation and then bringing that into themselves.
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Being able to regulate with themselves to not be in that defensive state so frequently,
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to be able to find a sense of safety and to come back to that feeling of safety more easily.
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And so the more the person's going to wait or is going to be made to wait until they
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get help and the situation is acknowledged because it requires a lot of acknowledgments
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from the caregiver point of view.
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Then what happens when the young adult comes and realizes that the childhood was not adequate?
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I mean, that's the time when they start recognizing, okay, my parents are humans and have faults
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of their own and okay, now I need to take that in.
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I also need to be able to talk about what's happened, which is very scary.
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And I also need to spend more time feeling the emotions that I've been trying to push
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aside, like fear and shame.
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Those are emotions that are really difficult to tolerate if your caregivers were not able
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to stay with you and help you deal with them in the moment.
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So now there are probably pretty good strategies that the person has been using to push those
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So avoidance tactics, engaging in substances, perfectionism to kind of help control things
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or people pleasing because it helps to manage other people's emotions so that they don't
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take them out on you or shutting down and being depressed because nothing else worked.
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So you're going to stop trying.
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And so where to from there?
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So when they meet with you, how did you come to do your work and then how do you do it?
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How do you get them out of that situation and out of those strategies?
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I mean, that's the question.
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So for me, I also have experience with anxiety and ADHD and was personally motivated to find
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strategies that were actually helpful so that I could achieve my own goals without all of
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the roadblocks that anxiety and ADHD often provide you.
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Focusing on two techniques especially or two orientations.
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So following the polyvagal technique of learning about the nervous system and understanding
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when I'm in what state and how to gently allow myself to get out of it as well as somatic
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So engaging in body movements and using the voice to help release the stuck trauma.
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So basically the goal is to have a more flexible nervous system.
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It's normal to go into the defensive states.
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So there's the green state of feeling safe and social and that's homeostasis.
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Then there's the yellow state which is mobilization.
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There's a threat that is perceived and it's time to fight or to flee.
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The third state is the red state of shutdown.
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This is when nothing else has worked.
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So time to preserve energy, shut down, dissociate, not experience what's happening.
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And it's normal for us to go in and out of these states throughout the day.
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Things trigger us.
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It happens automatically without our choice.
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But we can notice when that's happening.
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We can act the way a helpful co-regulating parent would for ourselves.
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We can pay attention to what's happening in the body, the sensations, pay attention to
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the thoughts because whatever state you're in is going to be determining what kind of
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thoughts come up, emotions and bring in elements of self-compassion and curiosity and elements
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It helps you to stay present in that moment, to not be afraid and shove the emotions to
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the side, but to stay present, to really acknowledge them and to process them effectively in that
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moment so that they're not lingering.
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And so concretely, then you would listen to someone's story, explain to them what happened
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and then give them sort of homework and then see them regularly or how, because it's not
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an easy thing to correct a strategy that has been building up over the years.
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So even for with me, sharing the story of the trauma is completely optional.
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There's no need to verbally tell me the story.
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If that is something the client wants to do in order to process it in that way, that's
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We can definitely do that.
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But for us, we would look at what were their coping strategies for that time in the past?
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What were they doing in order to protect themselves then?
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And then we look at situations now and see how those patterns are repeating in their
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And then we would take each of those situations from today, we would slow them down and examine
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What's going on in the environment?
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What's going on in the body?
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What are you starting to feel?
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What are you starting to think?
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What are your emotions?
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Just identifying those and having kind of a distant perspective to be able to recognize
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that this is just a moment in time.
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This is my nervous system responding the way that it's supposed to, what it thinks is a
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threat and that will pay for my body to do this.
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I'm going to listen to what my body needs.
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I'm going to be compassionate towards myself and I'm going to think of things that I can
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do to help take care of myself in this moment.
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And you know, it doesn't always happen right away.
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Sometimes we stay in that state for a period of time and it takes practice, but that helps
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to move you back into the green state.
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With migraine disease, we only have each other to make a difference.
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If you know of someone suffering from migraine attacks, share this podcast with them.
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And so let's imagine that someone who is listening to you is a caregiver of a child, but maybe
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not the prime caregiver, a secondary caregiver.
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Can be a teacher, can be grandparents, can be a friend, can be a godmother, godfather,
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and suspects trauma in the child's life.
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How can they be certain and how can they try to approach finding a solution?
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Would you have any advice?
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So that's a heavy topic and something that I have to face from time to time with my clients.
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If I suspect that there's some form of abuse, then it is my duty to afford it.
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So if you are working with a child and you recognize signs of abuse or that the child
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is in some sort of danger, then it definitely is important to take notes of what you're
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seeing and document that, then to talk to somebody.
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If you're in a place of work, talk to your boss, somebody who can help you, or you can
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go directly to authorities and make a report.
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That then means that that family will be visited by what is called MCFD here, but they'll be
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visited by police officers and social workers and they'll do an investigation and they'll
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Know the consequences of what you're doing, but also it is important to do so if you really
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believe there is trauma.
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Would you recommend, if there's doubts, encouraging the child to draw and understand, look at
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the drawings and sometimes children can speak a bit more.
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I'll speak of personal experience.
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When I was seven, I lost my godfather from an accident and he was sort of gone overnight
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and I hadn't been told for a while for valid reasons, but as a child, you feel you always
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would have understood and would have been able to deal with a coma and deal with more
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It was really hard for me to process grief when funeral and coma and death had happened.
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It's a bit, maybe something that you told, like never hide death from a child, but this
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happened and I completely forgive and understand why these things happen.
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I myself made the same mistake with my daughter when she lost her guinea pig.
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I tried to hide it and get a new one and announce it much later because I thought, oh my God,
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how is she going to react?
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And so as a child, I remember going to the psychiatrist and to draw and through drawings
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for the psychiatrist to understand the importance of that person in my life and what they meant
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to me and help me thrive later on.
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But I find whenever I see children with that, like just asking them to draw, you can really
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see the level of darkness in their drawing and the level of distress that they might
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not be able to express otherwise.
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I don't know, would that be a, because sometimes you have doubt, right?
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So we can say when there's a doubt, there's no doubt, but still sometimes, like you say,
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this has consequences, so you want to investigate more.
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And with certain types of trauma, you might see that child reenacting scenes that they
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have experienced themselves and of course, yes, it can come up in drawings, that's a
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big one, or in how they are playing with their toys.
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If you listen to the conversations that they're having amongst their toys, you can gain insight
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I hadn't thought of that.
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So now we have a trauma.
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We have a young person or young adults or older adults coming to you and then they undo
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What is to expect as symptoms when the person is in trauma versus after or finding resolution
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Before they have learned to kind of work through their trauma, I wouldn't say that everybody
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gets healed from their trauma and it is no longer a thing, but they are able to encounter
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a trigger and to not react as strongly to that.
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They can notice that this is one of my triggers.
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I'm not in actual danger right now.
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My body is reacting because it has noticed the trigger and it doesn't want what has happened
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to me before to ever happen again.
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So it is now doing all the things it needs to do to get me away from that.
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But we have the frontal lobes of our brains to kind of help us, okay, this is how I'm
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feeling, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm actually in danger.
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We can slowly become more able to access those parts of our brains, calming down the emotional
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elements of encountering a trigger.
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And then they might still go through the phase of, okay, I am triggered now for this period
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I am in one of the defensive states for this period of time.
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It's totally okay to be in one of those states.
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Our mindset is worse.
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It's harder to accomplish things because we have that voice in the back of our head saying,
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you sure you think you can do that?
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But we can, again, recognize I'm in a defensive state.
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The story my brain is telling me does not necessarily mean that that is the case.
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And what can I add in to support myself during this time?
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And it's okay to distract yourself sometimes.
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Do the software, do the listening in, and then if it's too much, fine, go watch TV,
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go do whatever else you need to do.
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It's just kind of building up that tolerance for these uncomfortable states and feeling
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safe enough during them to allow yourself to do what it needs to do.
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You mentioned that sometimes this can be triggered by something externally happening.
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Did you also find or that someone can be triggered by the thought of them or the memory
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I remember working with a woman and she would go better, better, better.
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To Cassie Knorr migraines, but then she would sometimes have these migraines that were triggered.
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I didn't know by what, not by food, not by hormones, not by anything visible.
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So I remember sitting down with her, it was four years ago and saying, look, I don't know.
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I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.
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I'm feeling illogical.
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I mean, it must be logical, but illogical to me with your body.
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What are these migraines about?
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And she explained to me that she had been sexually abused when her migraine started.
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And then she was thinking of coming out with that trauma and sharing it with the world.
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And whenever she was having those thoughts and that memory of that man, she would go
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through a migraine.
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So we discussed a lot about letting go and maybe having the time of her life to have
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her children, et cetera, and not maybe come out with that story now because it would probably
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induce more migraines, but maybe later when she has her daughter and she wants to protect
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But yeah, I vividly remember, yeah, it's really shocked me how, like, oh wow, it's the thought,
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it's something that you're processing.
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And that's why also when we put women in clinical trials and we say, oh, the medication, let's
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just keep men in the clinical trial because it's really bizarre that some of the data
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But when you actually talk to people and it's completely explainable, you have to take the
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time to acknowledge what's going on inside.
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It makes perfect sense.
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And I really commend her for wanting to tell her story and a lot of courage and that will
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likely provide her with a lot of confidence once it's done.
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But of course she needs to take care of herself and her family and figure out the right time
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But to the nervous system, pain alone is a cue of danger, inside the body, inside the
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mind, outside the body, in a relationship, all of these can be cues of danger or safety.
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A thought can be a cue of threat and it's important to then be aware that that was the
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cue, that was the trigger.
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We talked about letting go of emotions and trying to change emotion.
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I don't know if this is something you've heard about, but I find a bit like you were saying
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earlier, try a distraction, do this, do that and ultimately, you can watch a movie if you
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I found that crying, if you felt very angry, was very helpful and that if you feel also
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very stressed, sometimes just watching a stand-up comedy and allowing for a good laughter is
[28:27]
sometimes easier to do something, like I'm going to watch a really sad movie and cry
[28:32]
or I'm going to watch something really funny and laugh, then try to not have an emotion
[28:37]
that keeps on coming back.
[28:38]
And watching a funny movie is a cue of safety, so that would make perfect sense to add that
[28:45]
Thank you for complimenting that.
[28:48]
And so how long does this polyvagal nerve theory date back from?
[28:52]
How recent is all of this?
[28:54]
I think Dr. Stephen Porges is the one who discovered it and it was in the 1990s, I believe.
[29:03]
He's very scientific, so he had very scientific-type papers, so it was hard to disseminate to the
[29:12]
Then, I don't know what she is, she's either a social worker or a therapist, counselor.
[29:18]
Her name is Deb Dana.
[29:19]
She also is great with sciency-type things and was able to translate what Stephen Porges
[29:28]
was saying and put it into practice to use therapeutically for us regular people to understand
[29:35]
how our bodies are responding to the world and that it's totally normal.
[29:40]
We don't necessarily have this disorder for life.
[29:44]
We are in a defensive state and we can navigate it.
[29:50]
And if I may share my perspective, so as you know, I work a lot with traditional transmedicine
[29:55]
in the Western science.
[29:56]
And in traditional transmedicine, emotions are a complete part of health since always,
[30:03]
And so some emotions will impact some organs and organs will impact emotions, so they expand
[30:08]
the gut-brain axis.
[30:09]
I agree only in a couple of decades, if not just years, that we've discovered that part
[30:17]
of how emotions impact health and how they're so important.
[30:20]
I was listening recently to a Harvard professor who was mentioning, hey, we just forgot a
[30:25]
whole chapter in the health department, emotions.
[30:30]
And in traditional transmedicine, if you listen to the podcast I did with Dr. Yifang Zhang,
[30:34]
with whom I've been working a lot, who's about 70 and is taking care of her 95 and 97 year
[30:39]
old parents, she says, look, back in the days when my father and my grandfather were selected
[30:46]
to be doctors, one was because they were extremely literate and so very, very smart.
[30:52]
The other reason was because they had a lot of emotional quotient and emotional quotient
[30:56]
was and is still today an extremely important part of a characteristic to be a doctor.
[31:03]
You couldn't be a doctor without that component of compassion and of picking up the cues and
[31:09]
a little bit like if you have a child in your practice and you see that that child's response
[31:15]
to things a bit bizarrely, just understanding what's the family situation, is there anything
[31:20]
more than just a bronchitis here or a new infection that is coming back on and on and
[31:26]
So I find it quite fascinating.
[31:27]
But as with everything, the two medicines are emerging and are quite aligned with each
[31:32]
other at the end of the day.
[31:33]
And so we see that beautiful part, which I find the polyvagal nerve theory really prevalent
[31:38]
with trauma because this is where we, with a scientific eye, can see it and have proof
[31:45]
Now in a much smaller aspect, it does influence people that haven't gone through a trauma
[31:50]
before but have just an imbalance, but it's true that when there's a trauma, I do, and
[31:55]
I'm so grateful I found you, I do need someone like you to almost do the work before I can
[32:00]
do mine so that the vagus nerve gets into a much better state before we can completely
[32:06]
make it sleek and nice and efficient and painless.
[32:09]
Yeah, they do go hand in hand.
[32:12]
When we are in that sort of safe and social green state, then our body is functioning
[32:17]
Our body is able to heal, able to function.
[32:21]
And that of course would then allow the foods that you're recommending to be absorbed more
[32:26]
easily and efficiently.
[32:30]
And for a time, for a while, I was really wondering, I'm like, okay, there's just a
[32:33]
handful of women where I'm missing a piece of the puzzle and there seems to be a trauma.
[32:37]
It seems that because of that trauma, the food is not absorbed the same.
[32:42]
So in traditional Chinese medicine, it is believed that the state in which you eat is
[32:47]
as important as the food you're actually eating.
[32:50]
So you can eat something very organic, but if you're in that state of fright or flight,
[32:57]
you might absorb it the same way you'd absorb a poison, just because the body is associated
[33:02]
with threats and just not digesting it properly, therefore.
[33:06]
And so I was finding it quite challenging.
[33:08]
And so since then I have recommended you people and I'll continue to do that.
[33:11]
I find it just really, really beautiful to be able to work together.
[33:15]
And so would you like to tell us a little bit about your work, your process, how you
[33:19]
work with clients and where you can be reached out?
[33:23]
Oh my goodness, to work with people who also experienced migraines would be just amazing
[33:29]
because I know exactly how frustrating it is.
[33:34]
And to be able to merge that chronic pain experience with regulating the nervous system
[33:40]
and to feel safe and allow the body to heal, I think it goes hand in hand.
[33:47]
So my practice is called Centred Self and I have a website, it is centredself.ca and
[33:58]
centred is spelt the Canadian way, so C-E-N-T-E-R-E-D, centredself.ca.
[34:07]
And we put it in the notes of the show.
[34:10]
So anybody in Canada, I can work with you as a therapist, as a counselor, and anybody
[34:15]
abroad, I can work with you as a coach.
[34:17]
So there's a small difference there.
[34:19]
If we're doing therapy, we're also able to process past traumas or experiences together.
[34:25]
If I'm working with you as a coach, it's more based on the present and the future, of course.
[34:31]
And we work in either of those cases, we work with the nervous system.
[34:35]
So we would do an intake together, we would go over a treatment plan and discuss the polyvagal
[34:43]
theory so that the client also understands the things that I'm talking about.
[34:49]
And then we address the important topics and look at how the nervous system is responding
[34:54]
to these situations and find ways of bringing in more awareness in those moments, bringing
[35:02]
in self-compassion and more cues of safety.
[35:07]
And this will help the person to be able to start processing their emotions as they
[35:12]
come rather than putting them to the side because it's too much.
[35:17]
Again, when I'm working with clients, we don't just dive in, we do it small bits at a time
[35:22]
because we need to do it slowly to just the amount that the client is comfortable with.
[35:28]
And then we calm down a little bit and we come back and take our time with those kind
[35:36]
And then I like to send notes of each session to my clients, have everything written up
[35:41]
already to refer back to.
[35:43]
They know exactly what happened in the session and all of the techniques that we did as well
[35:49]
as sending them some exercises that they can work on over the week.
[35:53]
So I set my website and also I have Instagram, so centered.self.counseling.
[36:03]
And again, all of those are the Canadian spellings of centered and then counseling has two L's,
[36:14]
Look, thank you so much for sharing that.
[36:15]
I'm sure it will move and change lives.
[36:18]
So thank you for connecting all of these emotions with how the body works and how pain can have
[36:24]
its way to communicate back to us.
[36:27]
Thank you so much for having me.
[36:29]
It was really enjoyable to talk about this stuff.
[36:33]
I always love talking about it, but also being able to connect it to physical health
[36:39]
and migraines, it's just, you know, I'm coming full circle right now.
[36:45]
Thank you so much for being a double migraine hero.
[36:52]
The content in this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered
[36:58]
a substitute for medical professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
[37:04]
Always consult with your healthcare provider for any health related concerns.
[37:09]
And remember, everyone and every situation is unique.
[37:14]
Remember, sharing is caring.
[37:18]
Share your story with me, take my free tests and let's connect to help you gain a deeper
[37:24]
understanding of your migraine profile.
[37:27]
Learn about the underlying imbalances that could be contributing to your genetic predisposition
[37:33]
Join our community of migraine heroes.
[37:37]
All the links in the description below.
